we have not had that as of yet. >> richard, it's steve. just to be -- there's a couple of different waves that are in the dow theory. so if we do indeed get to your points, where do you see the s&p? i don't want to put you on the spot, but do you see us retracing a third of the move, 50% of the move, and where are you starting the move from just for the viewers? is it 12.60 in the s&p where we bounced? where do we start that move? >> well, i mean, a typical kind of retrace of about 1/3 to 2/3 of that move that we've had since the june lows, so i think you're talking in that range of 12.50 to 13 if you're just doing the rough math. one of the cardinal moves of the dow theory is you can't tell -- it doesn't tell you the duration nor the extent of a move. it tells you the trend. when we're going to new highs, you kind of assume that the trend is your friend. when you're going to new lows, you know, you assume that the trend is down, and what we're seeing now is massive divergence. we're kind of -- i would rather not put words in the mouth of